"Faraday" key pouches

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robertW
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by robertW » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:26 pm

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that there are about three signals involved to unlock a car, with different codes for each step. First, the key signals the car with its initial 'unlock request' code, the car replies back to the key with a different ‘handshake offer’ code, and the key signals again with a third ‘handshake acceptance’ code in final confirmation.

If that is the basis of it, then the thieves need to do more than pick up and replicate the initial unlock request code – they need to detect and replicate the handshake codes too.

However, as thieves still seem to get over this - presumably by laying nearby and recording the entire exchange sequence - then a method worth looking at would be use an Enigma type code changer in both key and car - changing the handshake codes instantly after an initial unlock request code is received by the car.

This sort of method is used by few banks for on-line access – where the customer uses a handheld keypad to generate a four fig code number – changing on each use - that is typed into the on-line account access page, and is matched to the bank’s calculation of the code number expected. But, of course, for a car, the code numbers need to be automatically generated by the key and car - omitting the need for a separate keypad.
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Wastegate84
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by Wastegate84 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:47 pm

I think this only applies to cars with keyless entry!

Happy to stand corrected but I understand their rogue device scans for the signal the key is constantly emitting inside the unsuspecting owners house. Once the device locates the signal it then replicates it and amplifies it so villain number 2 waiting by the car can open the door (the car thinks the key is nearby) and start the engine.

They can then drive off and as long as they don't switch off they can take the car wherever they an want.


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51mes
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by 51mes » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:43 pm

It really is as simple as that,

they don't crack the code - they don't need to. The key opens the car when it is close to the car and someone opens the handle, it does this by transmitting and recieving radio signals on a specific frequency. That frequency is in a well known range so scannable for. As folks have said the key is contiuously transmitting, but generally it is too far away to unlock the car.

However by having a pair of radio receivers and transmitters wired together with a length of cable between them it is possible to recieve the signal from the key that is in the house, pass the signal down the cable to a transmitter next to the car (or just use a much stronger transmitter ) and then vice versa for the car talking back to the key. They never break the electronic security - its a physical security flaw - which is why putting the keys in the house in a faraday pouch (as I do) is the best circumvention.

You can make a quite sensitive receiver with a large antenna and pick up the weak signal from the key through the brick walls of a house.

S
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Vespa
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by Vespa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:29 am

I am not sure that we are missing the point here. They scan the keyfob through the house walls on a tablet/laptop and then connect it to the OBD port in the car as the first unlock is obtained by the computer. That then allows them, in seconds to overide all other electronic access to the car. There have been several TV progs showing this on CCTV of owners. Similarly the same done with phones and credit cards. Only last night there was an example of phone fiddles on Panorama.
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PhilB
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by PhilB » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:35 am

robertW wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:26 pm
However, as thieves still seem to get over this - presumably by laying nearby and recording the entire exchange sequence - then a method worth looking at would be use an Enigma type code changer in both key and car - changing the handshake codes instantly after an initial unlock request code is received by the car.
That used to be the old method where they would wait until someone used the button on the key to unlock
and they would remotely "grab" the code (obviously not for keyless entry).
But things have moved on from that with rolling codes etc etc.
Even if they could do that and program another key it wouldn't work with ours as the keys are unique to that individual car and cannot be replecated.
Lose one of your keys and you have to have two new keys and a new module in the car paired to the two new keys.

What they are simply doing is boosting the signal from the key in the house (which is on all the time) to fool the car into thinking it's within the 3 feet to open the car and start the engine and drive away.
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PhilB
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by PhilB » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:36 am

Vespa wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:29 am
I am not sure that we are missing the point here. They scan the keyfob through the house walls on a tablet/laptop and then connect it to the OBD port in the car as the first unlock is obtained by the computer. That then allows them, in seconds to overide all other electronic access to the car. There have been several TV progs showing this on CCTV of owners. Similarly the same done with phones and credit cards. Only last night there was an example of phone fiddles on Panorama.
They don't need to use the OBD port as the car won't accept anything apart from the genuine key.
It's simply a signal boosting device that they use.
I saw CCTV footage of the bloke in the porch with the device in the bag and then his mate starting the car behind him so no connections needed.
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Vespa
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by Vespa » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:33 am

PhilB wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:36 am
Vespa wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:29 am
I am not sure that we are missing the point here. They scan the keyfob through the house walls on a tablet/laptop and then connect it to the OBD port in the car as the first unlock is obtained by the computer. That then allows them, in seconds to overide all other electronic access to the car. There have been several TV progs showing this on CCTV of owners. Similarly the same done with phones and credit cards. Only last night there was an example of phone fiddles on Panorama.
They don't need to use the OBD port as the car won't accept anything apart from the genuine key.
It's simply a signal boosting device that they use.
I saw CCTV footage of the bloke in the porch with the device in the bag and then his mate starting the car behind him so no connections needed.
I saw that one too and earlier ones with the computer. So things have moved on quite a bit. Also I now have the car auto lock at 5 mph as in Manchester just recently a woman was attacked in her Bentley. This was via the breaking of the window because the car was auto locked and they couldn't get in. From memory she was able to drive away quickly but was cut from glass and bruised.
ANECDOTE................

Some years back I had an MG Magnettte and had drop my girlfriend off at home (now my wife) as I approached a traffic island I saw 3 figures lurking in the bushes at the side of the road so locked my door as all the others were already locked. Sure enough, my instincts were right and these 3 tried to get into my car. I put my foot down and sped off dragging one part way around the island as he got his hand caught in the handle. I never went back either. Stuff him I thought.
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robertW
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by robertW » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:14 am

BevC wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:11 pm
Does this issue affect all keys or just the keyless entry system?
Good question. I'd like to know too. I have the simple smartkey and can't see a need for it to transmit continually.
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Wastegate84
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by Wastegate84 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:26 pm

Keyless entry only.


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Vespa
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Re: "Faraday" key pouches

Post by Vespa » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:51 am

This very topic is covered in today's Mail On Sunday in the financial section, inc pouches and aluminium kitchen foil as I have used. It is all about credit cards though.
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