12v Socket Availability Time

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Vespa
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by Vespa » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:45 pm

I gave up defibs around 10 years ago along with all ancillary equipment. Do I miss it ? Sometimes. ;)
R Sport 180 in Bluefire with loads of extras. ;)


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richmond
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by richmond » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:56 am

My understanding is that engines are designed to run at their warm/hot operating temperature with all the clearance tolerances at their closest and giving the least chance of wear. Below this temperature metals are either rubbing too hard together or are too far apart which causes movement abrasion. Modern oils help but can never entirely overcome the disadvantage of a cold engine, especially as in a cold engine the oil is also cold.

All the advice that I've seen on this says that the engine should be started and the car driven away to warm the engine as quickly as possible. To me, the idea of remote starting the engine and letting it sit there idling for some time while to warm up is bad for the long life expectancy. Mind you if you only keep a new car for two or three years then perhaps you might avoid the problems.
John
2016 XE Italian Racing Red Prestige 2.0i 200
Prev. 2011 XFS


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CaptainNoddy
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by CaptainNoddy » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:06 am

But the point is that engines are also designed to be started from cold. The wear rate may be higher when cold - and I am sure it is - but it is all expected and anticipated. It falls within the design criteria of the engine in the first place.

The start and drive away theory is supposed to get the engine up to temperature more quickly, but you will have higher loads and greater interaction between parts during that time too. So any benefit will limited. A tankful of diesel is about 15-17 hours of running time. I would guess that 95% of this time is spent with the engine warm. It's all worrying over nothing!!

To me, all of this is exactly the same as the idea that only filling your kettle with what you need before boiling it will save water by not evaporating away more than necessary. It's true, but you will never see the benefit.

All the advice you will read is mostly from 'experts' not working with engine manufacturers. Jaguar don't want engines failing any more often than we do. If they offer remote start and don't have big boxes in their manuals telling us to avoid leaving the engine idle while cold, then I doubt we need to worry.

Idling when cold may cause your piston rings to need replacing at 250,000 miles instead of 251,000 miles, but realistically it's not going to cause any problems that you will notice in the lifetime of your car.
MY16 XE 2.0 D AUTO 163PS, Ammonite Grey, Cold Climate Pack, Parking Pack, 10 way Seats, Xenon headlights


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Vespa
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by Vespa » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:11 am

The other thing to take note of here is (a) we have highjacked this thread..... sorry and (b) the new engines have smaller length pistons compared with years back and possibly better rings so less wear is evident. I haven't seen many blue smokers for years.
R Sport 180 in Bluefire with loads of extras. ;)


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CaptainNoddy
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by CaptainNoddy » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:20 am

Vespa,

In reverse order,

b) totally true

a) Totally agree - apologies....back on topic...

My car doesn't have a 12V socket in the boot. I was wondering about fitting one because I like the idea, but I don't know why! Does anyone else use these much??
MY16 XE 2.0 D AUTO 163PS, Ammonite Grey, Cold Climate Pack, Parking Pack, 10 way Seats, Xenon headlights


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Rgc
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by Rgc » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:35 pm

I have the power pack which adds power sockets in the back. Haven't really used them. In my old x-type estate I had a boot power socket. I used it to power my Jaguar fridge which i still have. (Its great) once i left it plugged in and running for 6 hours. The battety was flat after that. 😭
XE 180D RWD Auto Portfolio in Dark Sapphire Blue Light Oyster Interior, Gloss Figured Ebony
(14 waySeatsMem&PwrFold, ColdClimPack, PwrPack, ICTPro, AdvParkAssPack, 40/20/40 HeatRearSeat, LKA, BSMonitor, PremMoodLight, PanRoof)
- Essex 20/12/2016


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CaptainNoddy
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by CaptainNoddy » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:28 pm

Some mini fridges can be pulling 2.5 amps or more, so depending on the battery installed it might not last too long!!
MY16 XE 2.0 D AUTO 163PS, Ammonite Grey, Cold Climate Pack, Parking Pack, 10 way Seats, Xenon headlights


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richmond
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by richmond » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:51 am

CaptainNoddy wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:06 am
But the point is that engines are also designed to be started from cold. The wear rate may be higher when cold - and I am sure it is - but it is all expected and anticipated. It falls within the design criteria of the engine in the first place.

The start and drive away theory is supposed to get the engine up to temperature more quickly, but you will have higher loads and greater interaction between parts during that time too. So any benefit will limited. A tankful of diesel is about 15-17 hours of running time. I would guess that 95% of this time is spent with the engine warm. It's all worrying over nothing!!

To me, all of this is exactly the same as the idea that only filling your kettle with what you need before boiling it will save water by not evaporating away more than necessary. It's true, but you will never see the benefit.

All the advice you will read is mostly from 'experts' not working with engine manufacturers. Jaguar don't want engines failing any more often than we do. If they offer remote start and don't have big boxes in their manuals telling us to avoid leaving the engine idle while cold, then I doubt we need to worry.

Idling when cold may cause your piston rings to need replacing at 250,000 miles instead of 251,000 miles, but realistically it's not going to cause any problems that you will notice in the lifetime of your car.
Well that's a relief. I can ignore all the advice in all the driver's manuals that I've ever read and disregard all that automotive engineers say on the subject.

The reason that you shouldn't overfill a kettle isn't to save water it's to stop wasting power heating water that you aren't going to use. Help save the planet.

I don't follow your tankful of diesel reasoning. If you leave the engine idling from cold for 20-30 minutes every morning and only travel 20-30 miles then your '95% of the time' estimate is way out, more like 50%.

But back to the 12v socket, the one in the back seat area also shuts down after only a few minutes and if you've got children being kept quiet with their electronic gadgets then that's a real disaster. There's lots of reasons for wanting it to stay live for longer. Jaguar must be really worried about the battery whereas Ford don't seem to be. I wonder why?
John
2016 XE Italian Racing Red Prestige 2.0i 200
Prev. 2011 XFS


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CaptainNoddy
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by CaptainNoddy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:21 pm

Ah don't be so facetious richmond!

I'm talking about the XE manual specifically!! And when it comes to experts, how many of them actually detail events of early engine failure that have been contributed to an owners cold idling habits? That's all I'm trying to say.

The kettle thing includes a big push from water conservationsists for water saving - not just energy saving. Lots of reading out there in Internetland on it too. http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/ ... 60931.html

I doubt many are leaving their engines running for 20-30 minutes and if they are I doubt they do it every morning all year around and I also doubt they do it when coming home in the afternoon either. So perhaps we are both a little off with our figures?

Anyway, as you say, back to the socket....

How often does it come up to have kids needing power for their electronic gadgets - which have batteries I assume - while the engine is off?

(EDIT) Sorry, in the light of stepping on other toes elsewhere, I just want to make it clear that the last question is actually a query - not a challenge! Sorry richmond!!
MY16 XE 2.0 D AUTO 163PS, Ammonite Grey, Cold Climate Pack, Parking Pack, 10 way Seats, Xenon headlights


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Rgc
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Re: 12v Socket Availability Time

Post by Rgc » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:45 pm

When I picked up my new XE last year (Dec 20th) My daughters were with me and after the initial check over, stayed in the car while the salesman and I went back inside to do the lengthy paperwork. Meantime my daughters connected their iphones and explored the ICT etc. I left the ignition on for them, without the engine running. (After a while cant remember how long, but probably 40 mins or more) he became quite agitated and suggested we go out and turn off the system as the kids would be draining the battery. Didn't bother me, but I felt it as a surprise to be worried about that. Clearly at that point he knew more about it that me. However, so far in a year of traveling 10,000 miles or more (touch wood) I haven't had any battery issues either with the car or through use of the power sockets. That includes leaving the car at the airport for 2 weeks. I do lots of short journeys, and I mean about 2 miles several times a day, Maybe more at the weekend and then a few hundred miles journeys, once or twice a month. I thought the short Journeys would be a killer on the battery, but so far not a bit of it.
XE 180D RWD Auto Portfolio in Dark Sapphire Blue Light Oyster Interior, Gloss Figured Ebony
(14 waySeatsMem&PwrFold, ColdClimPack, PwrPack, ICTPro, AdvParkAssPack, 40/20/40 HeatRearSeat, LKA, BSMonitor, PremMoodLight, PanRoof)
- Essex 20/12/2016


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